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[00:34] <GitHub67> [scummvm] dreammaster pushed 1 new commit to master: https://git.io/vySt3

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[00:34] <dreammaster> Darkstar: Thanks for the changes. The constants make a lot more sense now
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[00:48] <Uhfgood> oh hi
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[01:10] <Lightkey> twitch.tv/gogcom and now Torin's Passage
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[01:41] <Endy> Ahh! Duplicate Cheeseness and Cheeseness1.
[01:41] <Endy> Zero indexed of course
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[01:41] <Cheeseness1> SteamVR killed my machine mid-dev stream >_<
[01:42] <Endy> Phew, order is restored. :
[01:42] <Endy> Yeah, nothing more annoying than that
[01:42] <Cheeseness1> Didn't have many viewers, but yeah. Super frustrating >_<
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[02:24] <GitHub188> [scummvm] dreammaster pushed 1 new commit to master: https://git.io/vySG4
[02:24] <GitHub188> scummvm/master 27cc4d6 Paul Gilbert: TITANIC: Implementing CStarControlSub5 class code
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[09:00] <octolith> @Tkachov: I saw your plans/sketches for the ScummVM site and thought that this might be a good read regarding the colors.
[09:00] <octolith> https://tallys.github.io/color-theory/
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[09:16] <criezy> Tkachov: I also saw your web site mockup, and I like the layout and how the important content become more accessible. But I don't like the colors.
[09:16] <criezy> And I have the exact same remark regarding your GUI mockup.
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[09:19] <GitHub136> [scummvm-web] criezy pushed 1 new commit to master: https://github.com/scummvm/scummvm-web/commit/8c289461aac8124c8cb58a404b86ccdcdd256f23
[09:19] <GitHub136> scummvm-web/master 8c28946 Thierry Crozat: WEB: Sync credits
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[09:25] <Tkachov> octolith: thanks!
[09:25] <Tkachov> criezy: yeah, _sev said the green is too acid
[09:26] <Tkachov> so I replaced it with a little bit more dark green: http://tkachov.ru/scummvm/flat/mockup/
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[09:26] <Tkachov> and left the acid green as highlight color
[09:27] <criezy> That is indeed better.
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[09:58] <Strangerke|work> hi guys
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[10:16] <cpasjuste> Hi _sev|work , many thanks for all the help adding my ps vita port (and rsn8887) to the official repo :)
[10:17] <cpasjuste> i would add loved to improve/clean the vita part but well, like many projects of mine it would have took years :)
[10:17] <_sev|work> cpasjuste: heh, the work has been done by your guys, that is much more awesome
[10:17] <_sev|work> cpasjuste: sure, you are welcome
[10:17] <cpasjuste> :D
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[10:17] <_sev|work> cpasjuste: if you want to join the team, please write an intro e-mail to scummvm-devel
[10:20] <cpasjuste> sure, i'll do that when i'll come back to it (currently very busy with real life and other projects)
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[10:20] <waltervn> morning
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[10:22] <_sev|work> waltervn: morning
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[12:48] <octolith> I forked the repo and compiled ScummVM.
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[12:48] <octolith> I forked the repo and compiled ScummVM.
[12:50] <octolith> Sorry for the double post, the university network is really wonky.
[12:51] <octolith> So as the tips suggest, I wish to play some games.
[12:51] <octolith> Let's put it this way: I've played point and click games before, but I'm not extremely familiar with the titles.
[12:51] <octolith> Any recommendations to get started?
[12:51] <octolith> My intention is getting to know ScummVM.
[12:52] <octolith> And then getting familiar with the code, so I could fix bugs from the bugtracker.
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[12:55] <octolith> Do you have any recommendations regarding the process? I'm a newbie, so any tips and tricks are welcome.
[12:55] <octolith> Even the most obvious ones, as they might not be obvious to me.
[12:57] <logix> the free games from http://scummvm.org/games/ are the most obvious suggestions I guess
[12:58] <logix> beneath a steel sky and flight of the amazon queen are probably the most typical original point and click ones
[13:00] <octolith> alright, thanks. I'll start playing with those two then.
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[13:37] <_sev|work> octolith: there is no need to complete the games, though :)
[13:38] <Strangerke|work> not all, at least
[13:51] <t0by> Hi octolith!
[13:51] <t0by> octolith, shameless plug: the WME free games are numerous and pretty good.
[13:52] <t0by> If you have time you *could* playtest some WME titles, like Bickadoodle, which I *think* is working now but I have had no time to playtest.
[13:52] <t0by> There is an interesting WME GSOC task... :^)
[13:53] <t0by> (And welcome from a past GSoC'cer; you'll love it in here :)
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[15:16] <octolith> _sev|work: of course, I just want to test ScummVM functionality
[15:22] <octolith> t0by: thanks! I'm going to take a look, also at the tasks. I felt like I shouldn't bother too much deciding which task I wish to do as I don't feel like I know enough about how ScummVM works, yet.
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[17:01] <WooShell> meow =^.^=
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[20:01] <Joefish> will there be any other requirements or project templates released on the 20th other than already described on http://wiki.scummvm.org/index.php/GSoC_Application ?
[20:03] <t0by> Joefish, former GSoC'cer here: usually that's not the case
[20:03] <t0by> at least for scummvm
[20:04] <t0by> I know it can be overwhelming: so much to do to write a coherent proposal, so little knowledge about the domain
[20:04] <t0by> but you can hang around in here and ask
[20:04] <t0by> everybody's super willing to help you write a coherent proposal;
[20:04] <t0by> in general people here love to help folks get to grips with scummvm, even when it's not gsoc-time, so...
[20:05] <t0by> Joefish, is there *anything* among the project ideas that tickles your fancy?
[20:05] <t0by> http://wiki.scummvm.org/index.php/Summer_of_Code/GSoC_Ideas_2017
[20:07] <Joefish> t0by: yea it's a bit overwhelming indeed :D I've already been committing to scummvm in a generic way (theme/language settings) so I atleast started to get a rough overview of the project itself. I'm interested in porting the 'mission supernova' games but I'm not sure how to prepare for it
[20:08] <t0by> _sev|work, ^
[20:08] <Joefish> I downloaded another game from the game creator's site and want to start reveng this engine and get my feet wet in implementing an engine
[20:08] <t0by> I am *not* _sev, but my wild guess is: you could start perusing the source
[20:08] <t0by> get an idea of what the logic looks like
[20:09] <t0by> which features depend on which
[20:09] <Joefish> afaik the source is not publically available and will be provided once you're accepted to gsoc?
[20:09] <t0by> Joefish, I *think* you have to ask _sev|work
[20:10] <t0by> I can't say, really, especially when legalities are involved
[20:10] <t0by> But usually, I'd start from there.
[20:10] <t0by> note that you don't have to propose a full UML diagram of everything and super formal stuff like that
[20:11] <t0by> you have to have *some* idea of what the engine looks like and what depends on what and scratch a basic design on the back of a napkin mostly to come up with a topological order of components (i.e. what comes first) in order to draft a basic schedule
[20:11] <t0by> schedule *and goals*
[20:11] <t0by> something like:
[20:12] <t0by> (suppose it's minesweeper)
[20:12] <t0by> 1. build classes for board
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[20:13] <t0by> 2. build function to check if moves are legal
[20:13] <t0by> 3. build scoring function
[20:13] <t0by> === midterm ===
[20:14] <t0by> 4. build main loop that enables to play in text mode on a given board
[20:14] <t0by> 5. build gui
[20:14] <t0by> === end ===
[20:14] <t0by> stretch goals: build random board generator
[20:14] <t0by> note how schedule and deliverables are interlinked
[20:15] <t0by> of course a full proposal needs to have some actual dates, clearer deliverables, etc
[20:15] <t0by> but that's the very basic idea of a proposal.
[20:16] <t0by> _sev|work or Strangerke probably have some old proposals they could show as templates
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[20:16] <t0by> I don't know if it's a good idea though.
[20:16] <criezy> Your "=== midterm ===" bit reminds me that this year the coding period is split in three (with two intermediate evaluations) and not two. So the plan needs to take that into accound.
[20:17] <t0by> whops
[20:17] <t0by> right
[20:17] Last message repeated 1 time(s).
[20:17] <criezy> And I should probably check that we have updated the wiki accordingly...
[20:17] <octolith> Oh I didn't notice that either
[20:17] <Joefish> damn that's great info. thanks t0by :) guess I missed that the milestones were changed though..
[20:17] <octolith> Thanks for the clarifications t0by
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[20:18] <t0by> octolith, Joefish: word of warning, I am not the most knowledgeable person about the gsoc process
[20:18] <t0by> but that's roughly how it works / worked for me at the time
[20:18] <t0by> so nothing I say has "official" value, ok?
[20:19] <Joefish> nono I'll show logs for proof if it goes to court!
[20:20] <Joefish> but I guess I should reread the gsoc guidelines to make sure I don't miss anything :P
[20:21] <t0by> Joefish, octolith, I would suggest not to fixate on the bureaucracy too much right now
[20:21] <t0by> that's for the application period
[20:21] <t0by> I'd work on exploring stuff... "informally" right now
[20:21] <Joefish> btw haven't you worked on the wintermute engine for gsoc?
[20:21] <t0by> Joefish, shameless plug: have you considered the WME task? :^)
[20:22] <t0by> There's a lot of nice work to be done there
[20:22] <t0by> unfortunately I don't have the time to do any grunt work right now :(
[20:23] <t0by> (Although I would really really like to see Director work, screw WME)
[20:23] <Joefish> :D
[20:23] <t0by> (There is probably terabytes of edutainment CD-ROMs and encyclopedias from the nineties and early 2000s that use Director, it's super relevant)
[20:23] <Joefish> are there any director games/engine in particular that people wait for?
[20:24] <t0by> _sev|work is, again, your man.
[20:25] <t0by> I know I have a box full of those and I'd welcome support for just about any one :)
[20:26] <Joefish> has director mx been the latest version or did adobe keep developing after buying it from macromedia
[20:26] <Joefish> still have some lingo book lying around somewhere :D
[20:28] <octolith> t0by: I've mostly been looking at the easy/medium tasks, because that's what I feel like my skill level is at right now.
[20:45] <Joefish> t0by: From what I understand you're allowed to apply for only one project?
[20:45] <t0by> Nope.
[20:45] <t0by> Wait, I'm not sure
[20:45] <t0by> Until last year you could upload 4 or 5 proposals on the gsoc site
[20:45] <Joefish> I think I read it somewhere but can't find it anymore..
[20:45] <t0by> not sure if they have changed the rules this year
[20:46] <Joefish> yea but I thought it was one org, one proposal
[20:46] <t0by> No, I think that's not the case.
[20:46] <Joefish> ah okay
[20:46] <t0by> As usual: not official. Check with gsoc (they have a ##gsoc chan in here as well).
[20:47] <octolith> I think I might go with either improving the touch GUI or the main GUI.
[20:47] <t0by> ScummVM-wise, I *think* there is no such limitation.
[20:47] <t0by> I know because at the time I considered two proposals, except in the end I got bored with zork
[20:48] <t0by> I *would not* try to write more than 2/3 proposals, though
[20:49] <t0by> mostly because it's hard to write an outstanding proposal, and harder/physically impossible unless you live in a warp of spacetime if you are trying to write 10 of them.
[20:51] <Joefish> t0by: just got a reply on #gsoc and they said it's fine to apply for multiple projects in one org
[20:52] <Joefish> and max 5 proposals in general
[21:12] <somaen> Sure, you _can_ apply for multiple projects
[21:13] <somaen> I wouldn't necessarily say that's the best idea, compared to investing the same time into fewer proposals
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[21:14] <somaen> In general, the process of creating a good proposal is an iterative one that you should expect to put a fair bit of thought, effort and time into.
[21:16] <Joefish> somaen: yea quality over quantity may be better. I just thought that the project I picked seems rather uninteresting to scummvm compared to getting support for director files or WME..
[21:16] <t0by> What somaen said
[21:16] <t0by> > iterative
[21:16] <somaen> Still reading the backlog, but what do you mean by "the project I picked"
[21:17] <somaen> Full disclosure: I was t0by's mentor a few years back
[21:17] <Joefish> with picked I meant what I want to write a proposal for. (porting the mission supernova games)
[21:17] <somaen> Well
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[21:18] <somaen> What would be your first order of business when approaching writing any such proposal?
[21:19] <Joefish> not sure if there's a right answer to that but I read the wiki, blogs from previous gsocs for scummvm and looked at previous gsoc applications
[21:20] <somaen> I'm fishing for a specific answer here
[21:21] <Joefish> well, getting an overview over the project and a rough estimate for the timeline, what is to be done, ..
[21:21] <somaen> The answer you gave is not wrong, but where would you go from there?
[21:21] <somaen> Ok, how?
[21:24] <t0by> Hint: > iterative
[21:24] <Joefish> well the thing is if I were to be picked I'd get the source, so there's no need for reveng the code. Otherwise I have to guess how the game probably does its rendering and file loading etc. I could look at the file format for save files and .dat for grpahics/text/.. and think about how long it should take to implement in an engine and take that as an estimate
[21:25] <somaen> Well, that's a catch-22
[21:25] <somaen> You can't produce your proposal AFTER you've been selected.
[21:25] <t0by> I suggest you check if you can get your hands on the source while writing the proposal.
[21:25] <t0by> (another subtle hint there)
[21:25] <t0by> *while/before
[21:26] <t0by> (Disclosure: I know what sort of answer somaen's fishing for.)
[21:28] <Joefish> what t0by said, but wouldn't anyone interested need to get the source for their proposal? I'm not sure if that was the intention of the author of the game. So I thought how to get the information I need to write a good proposal.... asking questions and for help seems the best way in that case :D
[21:28] <somaen> Yes!
[21:28] <Joefish> I just didn't want to seem incopmetent before even starting T_T
[21:28] <somaen> Step 1: Ask
[21:28] <t0by> ^
[21:28] <t0by> Step 2: don't be afraid to seem incompetent.
[21:28] <t0by> Step 3: really, don't.
[21:29] <somaen> Everyone does in the beginning
[21:29] <somaen> seriously
[21:29] <t0by> I still do.
[21:29] <somaen> And those are the same people you'll be competing with
[21:29] <somaen> So, it doesn't matter
[21:29] <t0by> Joefish, also "wouldn't anyone interested need to get the source for their proposal?" is a question - a question best asked to potential mentors :)
[21:29] <somaen> It's actually way more dangerous to not ask questions
[21:29] <t0by> Really, you should check.
[21:29] <t0by> ^ this
[21:29] <t0by> this so much
[21:30] <somaen> Heck, that's what the mentors are there for, answering questions
[21:30] <t0by> I remember being scared shitless of asking things that are obvious in retrospect. Would have saved me a ton of time.
[21:30] <Joefish> I feel a bit silly now because you're right..
[21:30] <somaen> Sure we're also responsible for approving stuff, but we really won't deduct anything for stupid questions
[21:31] <somaen> There's actually a likelihood that the opposite might be true
[21:31] <t0by> Notice: "approving".
[21:31] <somaen> Not grading
[21:31] <t0by> As opposed to grading
[21:31] <t0by> ^
[21:31] <somaen> Which is ALMOST true
[21:32] <somaen> It _is_ true for an ongoing GSoC project that we do approval.
[21:32] <somaen> For the application process on the other hand, there is a degree of competition involved.
[21:33] <t0by> Tbh, in my limited experience ScummVM seems to be a... chattier community than others, and mentors are more willing to 1-on-1 with you to help refine your proposal than others.
[21:33] <logix> I feel that http://www.phdcomics.com/comics/archive.php?comicid=1431 might be a bit relevant to the current discussion (s/grant/gsoc proposal/)
[21:34] <t0by> For obvious reasons, I can't imagine Prof. Norvig spending 5 hours on IRC coaching a guy with his/her proposal :)
[21:34] <Joefish> thanks guys. disregarding gsoc, what you said really makes you feel appreciated in a community
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[21:35] <GitHub72> [scummvm] sev- pushed 1 new commit to master: https://git.io/vyHW6
[21:35] <GitHub72> scummvm/master 2e5fa55 Eugene Sandulenko: DIRECTOR: Fix crash when Shared Cast is not present
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[21:35] <t0by> This is a very friendly place.
[21:36] <t0by> (At the time I was super uber intimidated, it took me a while to relax.)
[21:36] <somaen> But Well, unless you mention _that_ game
[21:36] <t0by> (But these guys in here helped me out a lot with that)
[21:36] <t0by> Oh, _that_ game.
[21:36] <Joefish> ?
[21:37] <t0by> somaen, you think they're ready?
[21:37] <somaen> Neh, don't scare them away
[21:37] <Joefish> :O
[21:37] <somaen> I mean, they might not even be wearing ties
[21:37] <t0by> I hope their plumbing doesn't leak though.
[21:38] <somaen> Joefish: But yes, seriously, ask questions, ask the stupid questions, ask the obvious questions.
[21:38] <somaen> Especially ask the questions you'd think we'd consider you stupid for asking
[21:39] <t0by> Here's the thing.
[21:39] <t0by> On the internet, being RTFM'd, a lot, is a thing.
[21:39] <Joefish> somaen: I will so better prepare your facepalms :D Nah it's great to know you can ask questions without fearing any repercussions
[21:39] <somaen> The only questions you aren't allowed to ask, are the ones that break our rules. (The no warez-ones)
[21:40] <t0by> Now, as much as this place looks very informal and all, you won't (almost) ever be RTFM'd in here.
[21:41] <somaen> Also, consider this, in a job interview-scenario, which candidate looks better? The one that asks a bunch of silly questions that at least gets the interviewer to see that he/she is thinking?
[21:41] <somaen> Or the one that keeps silent, fearing that he/she will look stupid, and hence doesn't progress on the problem posted.
[21:41] <somaen> t0by: The only exception being the above mentioned piracy-rule.
[21:42] <Joefish> somaen: I think the one that can fake knowledge until getting busted on it or using the time to brush up their skills (at least that has been my experience in life so far)
[21:42] <t0by> lol
[21:42] <somaen> "Fake it till you make it"
[21:43] <t0by> somaen: is that actual advice? :P
[21:43] <somaen> Thing is, faking doesn't come free either, you have to learn _something_ to fake stuff
[21:43] <somaen> No, I wouldn't suggest that
[21:44] <Joefish> t0by: only if you want to life with permanent anxiety, otherwise I wouldn't recommend it
[21:44] <somaen> well, you can build a decent impostor syndrome-situation, if you actually aim at being an impostor
[21:44] <somaen> Anyhow
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[21:45] <Joefish> but I don't and know that I know questions can be asked and are encouraged there's no reason for that :)
[21:45] <t0by> "And remember, kids: just because you're clinically paranoid it doesn't mean somebody isn't conspiring against you :P"
[21:45] <t0by> (Sorry, I'll stop.)
[21:45] <Joefish> :)
[21:46] <somaen> So, yes, you had a problem above here
[21:47] <Joefish> yea. So to get a accurate picture of the work that has to be done and getting a time estimate for the schedule I would need to see the source code.
[21:47] <somaen> And at the time, I was playing a bit of "leading a fish to water" (if you'll pardon the double-pun)
[21:47] <Joefish> has there been a similar case before and do you know the stnad on it from the projects perspective
[21:48] <Joefish> :)
[21:48] <somaen> Well, in my case, the source code was readily available when I applied.
[21:48] <somaen> BUT
[21:48] <somaen> There have been similar situations before
[21:49] <somaen> The exact details can vary a bit from case to case.
[21:50] <somaen> But in general, I'd suggest a good place to start here, is to figure out who the mentor is for this task (or who has said source code), and dropping them a line or two.
[21:50] <t0by> Oh, you know what?
[21:51] <t0by> At the time I had a hard time matching names with IRC handles.
[21:51] <Joefish> well _sev|work is listed as a possible mentor so I guess he could help me on that
[21:51] <t0by> I'm afraid I don't have a solution, but I thought I'd share it.
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[21:52] <octolith> Oookay. So, question time then. I have worked with SDL in the past, it was quite a long time ago, so honestly I don't remember much, but I think I can get up to speed with this one. I never touched OpenGL or more advanced computer graphics in general. I feel like the only realistic tasks for me are the GUI improvement ones, mostly the main GUI improvement
[21:52] <octolith> task. I know it's listed as easy. But. What I know is that this would be my first year in GSoC. I'm not sure how much extra knowledge I can pick up until I would have to start working on the project. I feel like I might not be able to do something more difficult this time. I'm always looking for ways to improve myself and I think I would try again next year
[21:52] <octolith> with something more complex. But for now this is what I feel confident working on. Does this seem logical to you? Should I aim for something bigger risking failure (at least that's what I feel)?
[21:53] <t0by> Well, that's up to you, but remember that the point of GSoC is *learning*.
[21:53] <t0by> (As well as bonding with the community and getting a nice amount of cash)
[21:53] <somaen> Aim for something you feel you can handle
[21:54] <somaen> But of course, dealing _slightly_ outside your comfort zone is good for learning.
[21:54] <Joefish> what OS are you guys developing on?
[21:55] <somaen> macOS
[21:55] <somaen> But there's also people running on various linuxes and Windows.
[21:55] <t0by> octolith, Joefish: if I may, there is not *a lot* of PhDs with 10 years development experience doing GSoC.
[21:56] <t0by> I.e., it's intended you are... a student.
[21:56] <Joefish> somaen: when it comes to reveng games what tools have you been using? I heard there's also IDA for linux (what I'm using) but the free version is only for windows, so..
[21:56] <t0by> You don't need to be scared because you don't have a significant background.
[21:57] <Joefish> I have been looking at radare but it's learning curve is quite steep
[21:57] <somaen> Well, IDA has linux/mac/win-versions, but only a free Windows-version
[21:57] <somaen> There's also OllyDbg, and in the cheaper end of the scale, Hopper seems to be coming out for Linux
[21:57] <logix> yeah, just wanted to mention hopper as well
[21:58] <somaen> A Windows VM with IDA Free isn't hopeless either
[21:58] <t0by> At the time, I was *really* intimidated by competition from guys who had done a lot of stuff before, or were seniors/master's students.
[21:58] <t0by> Now, the *only* problem I got from that was that... I was too intimidated to ask questions.
[21:59] <Joefish> haven't heard of hopper. looks quite nice :)
[21:59] <somaen> Joefish: Although, to be fair, the major amount of work I've been doing, was from existing sources.
[22:00] <somaen> Or, staring at game scripts for prolonged periods of time until you realize how the pieces probably fit together
[22:01] <t0by> I think somaen will agree when I say, however, that newbies would have an advantage in starting from stuff with sources available.
[22:01] <logix> Joefish: also, there's always objdump, but that might be a bit too "raw"
[22:02] <octolith> Okay, I think I'll try my best with the main GUI then. I know I need to work on my git skills, to be more confident. I know I need to read the sources and get to know ScummVM more. I need to learn how to handle vectorgraphics in the gui, etc, etc. And also I need to speak with _sev about all this!
[22:02] <t0by> Oh, git.
[22:02] <t0by> Let's talk git, shall we?
[22:02] <somaen> octolith: That's right, as for git, t0by can probably tell you about that
[22:02] <Joefish> logix: guess depending on what you want to do but I really like stepping through the disassembly from time to time :D would be nice having something like olly or x64dbg on linux
[22:03] <t0by> The thing with git is that git is a time saver.
[22:03] <t0by> If you know git.
[22:03] <t0by> If you don't know git, you'll waste hours of productivity.
[22:03] <t0by> "Knowing git" means knowing its data structures.
[22:03] <t0by> I.e. the commit graph.
[22:03] <t0by> You have to have it firmly in your head.
[22:04] <somaen> Although not on the graph-theory level
[22:04] <t0by> Yeah, now
[22:04] <t0by> *no
[22:04] <t0by> on the "balls and arrows on the back of a napkin level"
[22:04] <Joefish> btw does anyone know what timezone sev is living in?
[22:04] <somaen> GMT+1
[22:04] <Joefish> oh nice
[22:04] <t0by> Finding out what command does what is not a problem, but you need to know *what* you are doing.
[22:04] <somaen> Aka the western europe CET one IIRC
[22:05] <t0by> Otherwise it's like playing blind chess without knowing what the chessboard looks like.
[22:05] <t0by> Not. Fun.
[22:05] <somaen> t0by: Somehow, all I needed to grasp that, was the train-junction-style graph examples in the man-page, and a white-board explanation of it to grasp rebasing
[22:05] <somaen> Doing rebases consistently RIGHT however, now that cost me a few mistakes
[22:06] <Joefish> I'll drop him a mail anyway as he won't be joining our conversation anymore today I guess.
[22:06] <octolith> t0by: yeah. I'm kind of inbetwwen those two states. Thanks for the heads up.
[22:07] <octolith> I guess I'll have to experiment more on my fork and also do some advanced tutorials.
[22:07] <t0by> <2013 t0by> huh ha what's a "rebase"? I won't ask, looks like it's something everyone and his dog knows.
[22:08] <octolith> :D:D:D
[22:08] <somaen> That literally cost t0by a week
[22:08] <t0by> <2017 t0by> damn, I messed up my history again.
[22:08] <t0by> ^
[22:08] <somaen> Well, that and running git on windows at the time
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[22:08] <somaen> git-bash was horrible slow back then
[22:09] <somaen> the MingW-based version
[22:09] <t0by> Disregard git-bash
[22:09] <t0by> SourceTree on my machine at the time is still my gold standard for "unusable molasses"
[22:12] <Joefish> I have been 'winging' git for quite some time and http://learngitbranching.js.org/ and https://git-scm.com/book/en/v2 are great resources imo
[22:13] <octolith> So yeah. It seems like I have a lot to learn, no matter which task I choose. The Main GUI one is what I feel most comfortable working on (which doesn't mean it's not out of my comfort zone). I'll try to reach _sev this weekend regarding this. Thanks for all your advice!
[22:14] <octolith> Joefish: thanks, I'll take a look.
[22:15] <t0by> somaen, fwiw I am currently tutoring/TA'ing a freshman programming class and... they're *all* like that.
[22:16] <t0by> Afraid to ask.
[22:16] <octolith> t0by: I think I know why
[22:16] <t0by> Because of the TA's menacing looks?
[22:17] <t0by> Because that would be a lie. My ruggedly handsome good looks are not the problem :P
[22:17] <octolith> At least in my uni the teachers constantly communicate that we're stupid. Sometimes they make fun of questions. And then they simply don't encourage you to participate.
[22:18] <t0by> I try very hard to communicate we're stupid.
[22:18] <t0by> Inclusive *we*.
[22:18] <t0by> In fact that's literally what I'm doing here as well.
[22:19] <Joefish> would be great if we lived in a society that encourages the curious to ask questions
[22:19] <t0by> We're all asses. It's okay to ask questions and make mistakes.
[22:19] <t0by> Anyway, in particular, I am *almost positive* literally nobody knows the basic definitions of the watered down Hoare logic they are taught, and *nobody* asks because they think *everybody else* knows.
[22:21] <Joefish> btw what is the reason for scumm and residual being seperated projects? iirc it's like scumm is for 2d/traditional engines and residual for 3d/newer ones?
[22:22] <t0by> Essentially.
[22:22] <octolith> I tend to think I'm not like that anymore or at least I try to change that. Anyways, I think that's it for me for today. It's getting late, GMT+1 here, too :) Goodnight and thanks again for your insights!
[22:22] <t0by> nite!
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[22:22] <Joefish> gn octolith :)
[22:23] <t0by> Joefish, note that it's easy-ish to graft a ScummVM engine into Residual - somaen has done that, experimentally, with WME
[22:23] <somaen> Joefish: Historical reasons, as well as the very different portability of code that is somewhat dependant on there existing _some_ degree of hardware 3D rendering
[22:23] <t0by> Residual is *very vaguely* a superset of ScummVM from the engine's point of view.
[22:24] <somaen> Well, except where it isn't, but that's where you cheat with GL
[22:24] <somaen> Point is, ScummVM is ported to more platforms than SDL
[22:24] <somaen> You can't expect to have GL available, nor a CPU fast enough to do software rendering using TinyGL
[22:24] <t0by> ScummVM is ported to more platforms than just about anything else except Emacs.
[22:24] <t0by> And I'm not sure about Emacs either.
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[22:24] <somaen> Well, you're forgetting NetBSD
[22:25] <somaen> That stuff still runs on MicroVAX
[22:25] <t0by> You can build Emacs on NetBSD :P
[22:25] <Joefish> running on n64 is quite neat though :D
[22:25] <somaen> We actually still run NetBSD on a MicroVAX up at Uni
[22:25] <t0by> No.
[22:25] <somaen> Yeah, forget about running ResidualVM on N64
[22:26] <Joefish> hardware too weak?
[22:26] <somaen> ScummVM manages that by wrapping everything that remotely touches the OS
[22:27] <somaen> Assumptions such as "there exists a file system", are just that, assumptions
[22:27] <somaen> ResidualVM on the other hand has so far allowed for direct access to OpenGL
[22:27] <somaen> I mean, to give an example, ScummVM bans STL
[22:27] <somaen> we also ban fopen and friends
[22:27] <somaen> In engine code
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[22:28] <somaen> For portability reasons (i.e. endianness/alignment/no actual file system etc)
[22:30] <t0by> Only fopen's friends are banned, though.
[22:30] <t0by> You can bring your own.
[22:30] <t0by> Essentially ScummVM is very much like an OS from the engine's point of view.
[22:33] <snover> t0by: did i hear you are going to help everyone with their git problems? ;-)
[22:34] <t0by> No, no, you heard "zit problems".
[22:34] <t0by> See, I sell this *fantastic* moisturizer
[22:37] <snover> theres another joke in there somewhere, i just cant find it
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[22:45] <criezy> Such as an indy3 quote about selling fine leather jacket and solving "zip problems" ?
[22:46] <t0by> Uh, isn't the fine leather jacket line from monkey2?
[22:49] <criezy> You actually have it in several LucasArts games. I think Indy3 was the first one to have it?
[22:51] <t0by> Huh. Could be. it's been a while and... the italian translators are erratic.
[22:51] <t0by> To this day I wonder how is it possible those people got paid for the work.
[22:52] <t0by> Wait.
[22:52] <t0by> It's been... 14 years now?
[22:52] <t0by> 15?
[22:52] <t0by> Oh lord
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[23:33] <Lightkey> yes?
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[23:47] <Deledrius> Indy was the source of the joke. The others are references to that.
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[00:00] --- Fri Mar 17 2017